Dr. Samra Zafar on Attuning to the Voice of Love

Internationally renowned speaker, physician, and author Dr. Samra Zafar speaks with Tess about her new book Unconditional: Break Through Past Limits to Transform Your Future, which explores breaking free from old conditioning and embracing self-acceptance. She shares her journey from an abusive marriage to building a better life, emphasizing the importance of meditation, visualization, and unlearning. Zafar highlights the concept of "parts work" therapy to understand and heal different aspects of oneself. She stresses the significance of solitude, self-compassion, and community in personal growth. Zafar also underscores the power of self-trust, mentorship, and the courage to pursue dreams, despite fear, to achieve unconditional self-acceptance.

Dr. Zafar has been recognized among the Top 100 Most Powerful Women in Canada and the Top 25 Canadian Immigrants. Her memoir A Good Wife: Escaping the Life I Never Chose, was a national bestseller. She is the founder and executive director of Brave Beginnings, a national charity that provides mentorship to women who have escaped abuse. Her work has impacted millions and has been featured in national and global media. Samra Zafar’s speaking portfolio includes four successful TEDx Talks and many leading organizations around the world. You can find out more about her work at: www.samrazafar.com. Samra's huge heart and depth of wisdom are evident in this fascinating conversation. Enjoy!

Transcript

Tess Callahan: 0:00

Tess, welcome to Heart. Haven meditations, a podcast that offers guided meditations and occasional interviews to help you attune to your own creative powers through intimate inner listening. I'm your host, Tess Callahan, meditation teacher and author of the novels April and Oliver and John land. I hope you enjoy this deep dive into the inner workings of the creative process. Today, my guest is Dr Samra Zafar, an award winning, internationally renowned speaker, physician and author. She has been recognized among the top 100 most powerful women in Canada, the top 25 most inspirational women in Canada and the top 25 Canadian immigrants her acclaimed memoir, which I loved a good wife, escaping the life I never chose was a national bestseller. Her new book, unconditional breakthrough past limits, to transform your future. Is an inspiring, practical self help book that weaves together research and personal stories that show us how to break free from faulty limiting beliefs. It's a gorgeous book. Dr Zafar teaches us how to embrace who we truly want to be and to love ourselves unconditionally. Welcome, Sama, thank

Dr. Samra Zafar: 1:33

you so much for having me on here. Tess, it's truly an honor.

Tess Callahan: 1:37

It's truly a delight and an honor to be here chatting with you. So I wanted to start by asking about your new book unconditional and what the inspiration was for that, or if you had a seed image that inspired the book. That's

Dr. Samra Zafar: 1:53

such a great question and such a great way to start. I am a firm believer in meditation and visualizations. It's something that I've been doing even before I knew what to call it. And for instance, you know, when I was in my marriage, in those early years of abuse, I would have no hope of ever going to school, but I would still stand in front of a mirror and visualize myself giving an acceptance speech, when I would graduate with a university degree or become a doctor and a healer, and all those dreams that I had. So this book was one of those same moments, and as I was reflecting back on my journey for the last, you know, decade or so since I left an abusive marriage and built a better life for myself and my daughters, I would often think about what was the most profound journey that I've been on in these last 10 years. And I thought, you know, when I left my marriage, I thought I would be learning new skills, like whether it's to how to get a job, how to network, how to build financial security and whatnot, but what I really needed to do more was unlearning, unlearning all the limiting beliefs and the conditioning and the systems of patriarchy and racism and all those other faulty ideas that I grew up with. And that journey has been the most profound journey I've been on. And one of these meditations that I do, I love visualization meditations, and one of these meditations I was doing with my then therapist, and I was standing in front of a cave opening with my wings spread, ready to fly, but there was something holding me back. There was people holding me back, and these people were people from my past who were no longer in my life, but they were still there in my psyche, in my mind, in my soul. And here I am standing at the edge of the cave with my wings spread, ready to take off, ready to fly, but there are ropes attached to me, and when I look back, these ropes are held by the same people that held me back for so many years of my life. And I remember saying to my therapist, I don't know how or when they will let go, because I just want to take off. I want to fly. I'm already on top of this mountain. I want to soar. And my therapist said to me, why are you waiting for them to let go? Why don't you just untie those ropes from your end? And even as I'm telling. You this right now, Tess, I have goosebumps on my body, and I have like shivers going through me, because I do too. It was that same feeling that I had at that time. Why am I waiting for them, for others to give me permission to fly I can do my own work, to silence those voices, to uncondition myself. And the next few years really became about that journey to untie those ropes, to be true to who I truly am and have always wanted to be. And that is the seed image, as you call it, that gave inspiration to this book that I want to now share what I have learned and what I have unlearned, and the tools and strategies that helped me and the lessons I learned along the way, and the people that I drew inspiration from, and the science that backs all This up, the research that backs it up. I'm a huge believer in science. I'm a physician, so I wanted to weave together the stories to make it as accessible to people as possible, and the science to also validate what I'm talking about, and share those tools with others to be on their own journey of achieving that unconditional self acceptance

Tess Callahan: 6:28

that's beautiful. I'm really moved by that image of you in front of the cave with the cords attached and your brave move to untie them yourself. Images are so powerful, and also how it links back to your childhood image of looking at yourself in the mirror and seeing yourself graduating such a beautiful life force in you at that moment, connecting with your own deep desire that's really powerful. I appreciate you sharing that. And I'm sure it was a process once the image emerged meditatively and then actually untying the chords, because I'm sure those voices, the external voices, were still poking you at times, right? So for you to not respond in old ways, maybe or not, yeah, not, not feel attached to those chords, even though they were trying to attach to you.

Dr. Samra Zafar: 7:34

Yeah, yeah, very much so. And something I learned over the course of my journey is that you know people can be out of your minds, or sorry, people can be out of your lives, but still live on in your minds, in your psyche. So are you then free just because they're out of your life, like somebody dies or you get a divorce, or you end a relationship or a friendship, but if that person and the messages that they taught you about yourself, about the world, about how you should operate, how you should be or not be, if those messages are still the blueprint through which you operate in life, even after they're out of your life, but You're still living by that same blueprint that they taught you. Are they really out?

Tess Callahan: 8:26

Yeah, I think you're pointing at something universal here, Samra, because we all have that imprint from our parents, from our culture, right from our family, from our society, from possibly, from our religion, that it's operating in the substrate without our conscious awareness. And then we think those beliefs our personal beliefs, but they're actually inheritances, absolutely

Dr. Samra Zafar: 8:51

and you know, I grew up in an extremely restrictive environment, very patriarchal, very homophobic, very derogatory towards women and every single woman that I saw around me, my mother, my aunts, my cousins, my friends, everyone subscribed to the same belief systems that were governed by patriarchy and subjugating women. And everybody told me that a woman's primary purpose in life is to serve the man, initially her dad and eventually her husband. So when I broke free from that, it was not easy. I faced a ton of shame and stigma. But even when I broke free and I was now living in a different way, and I was living in Canada as an independent woman, and I. Having my career and my education, those messages were still buried so deep in my subconscious mind, and I would oftentimes question myself. You know, the imposter syndrome that I have faced all my life has been at times called so much distress to me, because I would think to myself like I'm achieving all these amazing things. Why do I still feel like I don't deserve it? And I realized that the reason I feel that way is because I was told that women don't deserve to be successful or to be educated or to be liberated. In fact, it's a sin for a woman to be liberated. A liberated woman is a shameless woman like those are the kinds of things I grew up with. So now that I am achieving those things, it's only natural that I would feel that I don't deserve those things. Yeah, because I was never supposed to get those things. I was never supposed to achieve. So even when you're going against the grain and you have the courage to go against the stereotypes that you grow up with, they still live on. And they like, you know, they pop their head up at times when you least expect them, and on a subconscious level, sometimes they may hold you back, like I have oftentimes, you know, not introduced myself to people or not applied for certain roles or jobs or things because I would think I don't deserve it. But thankfully, I have a community of people around me today who challenge when I say when I say things like that, right? So I now I have learned through this process of unlearning and unconditioning, is that okay, when that imposter syndrome pops up, or that fear pops up, that's not me, that's not my voice. That is representative of the voices that I grew up with, right? And I can choose which voice to listen to. That is where my power lies.

Tess Callahan: 12:13

That's extraordinary. And I think some degree of that messaging for women is pervasive across cultures, absolutely, and I'm glad you brought this up, because I one of my questions I wanted to ask you was because a lot of your book unconditional focus on contacting with our intuition, right, our inner voice, and the voice of of anxiety, or The voice of imposter syndrome is also a kind of inner voice. So I'm curious what your process has been for teasing those apart and knowing what voice within you to trust, yes, and if you have any practices around that,

Dr. Samra Zafar: 12:56

yes. So the way that I think about that is that think of it as parts of yourself. And I'm going to draw a little bit of analogy from parts work therapy that I talk about in the book as well. And it's, it's a very profound sense type of therapy that, you know, I'm now getting trained in, and I've also used it in my own life is that we, as you know, when we're born and when we grow up, there is a part of ourselves that is truly authentically us, as in our self, you know, and That is this pure, innocent connected with a higher power part that is our core, that is our true, authentic inner voice that is not held back by society's pervasive messaging, fears, all the bad things that happen to us. It's not conditioned by anyone. That is just core to who we are. So when you see a baby who is vocalizing its need to be cuddled, to be loved, that is the self voice. It's not held back by the fears, oh, but if I ask for love, I won't get it. If I go into this space, I won't be welcomed. Those are things we learn as we grow up. But no child is born feeling that they're inadequate, unlovable, not enough, a shame, like we don't as a baby. When we're born, we don't have any of those emotions attached to ourselves or beliefs attached to ourselves. We learn them as we go along, so that self is pure of all these things, right? But then as we grow up, and now we're faced by these messages of, oh, you're not enough. You're too vocal. You are not vocal enough. You. Are you an extrovert? Why are you an introvert? Why do you dress this way? You should be a better wife. You should be a better daughter. You should be a better mother. You should be this. You should be that. So all these things that we learn and pick up as we grow, we develop other parts of ourselves too, and these parts are very, very well meaning parts that are that we develop as a defense mechanism. These parts are parts that we develop is a way to protect ourselves. Are that inner self that I was talking about earlier, right? So they're actually like, kind of like the guards, but these guards are sometimes, even though they have the best intentions, they don't necessarily have the healthiest ways to protect you. So for instance, if you grew up with childhood trauma, whether that was abuse or neglect, you learned that vocalizing your needs to your parents is going to be a bad thing. You will deserve punishment, right, which is heartbreaking, but so many of us grow up with those kinds of faulty parenting systems, so now you've developed a part of yourself that is holding you back from vocalizing your needs, from asking for love. Right now, this part basically has the best intentions. It's trying to protect you from getting punished. So when you grow up, that part is still there. And now, when you're in a relationship, when you are in a marriage, when you are in a friendship, and you have trouble vocalizing your needs, it's this part that is trying to hold you back, and that's trying to protect you, right? And then there are other parts that we develop as well along the way. In my case, I'll give an example. I grew up with a mother that was never affectionate, and I was always learning that love is something that you have to strive for, that you have to earn by being obedient by being subservient by being a doormat. So after I left my marriage, in several of my subsequent relationships, even though I was academically and career wise successful, but in several of those romantic relationships, I was still always trying to earn love instead of feel that I deserve it because of who I am. Love is something that should be given freely and unconditionally. There was no such concept of unconditional love in my mind. So again, that part of me developed through childhood and as an adult, it was still there. So when we think about these voices inside of us, whether it's this holding us back from vocalizing our needs, earning love, imposter syndrome, fear, all these things. These are parts of our parts that we have developed over the course of our childhood and upbringing to protect ourselves. And now, through this process of unconditioning, we can now develop a better relationship with that self voice, that pure voice, and basically soothe those damaged parts. And you know, I use damaged as a very compassionate word, they're not damaged. They're simply coming from a damaged place, the damage that we experienced as a child, the parts themselves have the best of intentions. They're going about it in damaged ways. So now we can soothe them. We can give them the compassion and love and tell them you can rest, I got this, and develop that healthier relationship with the with that inner self voice that is the true voice, that is the authentic voice, right? So it's all about this interplay, and I think what a lot of this trauma and conditioning does is that it breaks our relationship with that self voice, the voice that is truly ours, instead of the voices that are other people's voices, or the systems of inequality that we face. So when and a lot of this work is about repairing that relationship and strengthen it, strengthening it. And I think it's a journey, and it's a journey I'm still on, and I'm hoping that by writing this book, I've I'm inspiring others to be on that journey too.

Tess Callahan: 19:58

Oh, definitely, it's deeply. Inspiring. And I love what you're saying, because it encourages us to have a friendly attitude towards those parts of ourselves, rather than an angry or resentful feeling, or, as you're saying, all those aspects of us are there to help protect us and keep us safe. So I guess it's a question of, you know who's who's in the driver's seat? Absolutely, absolutely being deliberate about which voices is driving the bus, yeah, which is not an easy process. Yeah, you

Dr. Samra Zafar: 20:33

mentioned a really good point. Actually. This is an analogy that I've I learned in a book that is written by Dr Stephen Hayes, and he uses this analogy of a bus that Imagine yourself driving a bus, and there are all these people on the bus, right? And these are people who have been in your life, even though they're not currently present in you know, like whoever we've encountered is on that bus right? We can't stop the bus because the bus has to go on. Life has to go on, right. And sometimes those people, those voices, will tell you to go a certain way. So even though you know you're in the driver's seat, you know that you're gonna go right. That is your intention. That is where your desire is. That is you as in the cell. You know, I want to go right, because that's where I want to go. That's where my freedom is. That's my authentic voice is telling me to go right. But then you're going to hear all these noises behind you, these voices going, Oh no, no, no, no, don't you dare go right. Oh no. What are you thinking? Come on, you have to turn left, right, and they're loud at that time. Is the choice you face. The choice is, am I going to listen to them and let them convince me to go right, or sorry, to go left, or am I going to put duct tape over their mouth that, you know, you don't get to drive my bus. I get to drive my bus. Yeah, right. So it's the same kind of thing with parts of ourselves, but we can't just put duct tape on their mouth and put them back, because then they're going to be even more traumatized. I think with parts of ourself, we want to be compassionate towards them and treat them with love and compassion and kindness, because they're just there to protect us, and these are parts that served us at a time when we needed that protection, right? Yeah, like my four year old self, who was, you know, one of the stories I share in my book is when I was, I think four or five years old. My mother told me a story that that there was some pious woman who wanted a glass of water, and she told her daughter to get her a glass of water. By the time the daughter came back, the mother had slept, had fallen asleep, and the daughter stood there by the bedside all night, holding that glass of water until the mother woke up. And the mother was filled with so much love for her, and that is how you earn love. Sarah, and I remember at that age, I think I was, like five or six. Somewhere around that time, I once waited for my mom to fall asleep, went and got a glass of water and stood by her bedside, hoping she will wake up and see me standing there. Wow, and that is how she will love me, because I wanted to be that daughter, that she will hug and embrace. And I fell asleep, and I remember in the morning how inadequate and unlovable I felt that I couldn't even earn my mother's love. So that part of me was there to yearn for that love, and it was that same part that was acting out in all these adult relationships that I had amazing. You know, in one of the relationships I was in, I was basically standing at the door of a man begging him to love me, and I'm like, why am I doing this? And I had this flashback of me standing at my mother's bedside, wow. And I realized then I didn't need that man's love. I needed my own love for that four year old and to soothe her and calm her that it's okay. You have my love. You have my approval.

Tess Callahan: 24:43

That's just a stunning story. Sama, really,

Dr. Samra Zafar: 24:48

and that is what forever changed my relationship with love and romantic connections. And you know, today I'm in a relationship. Where Love is not something that I'm yearning to earn every day, it's something that is just there and that would not have been possible until I healed that part of me.

Tess Callahan: 25:14

Yeah, and I'm sure that wasn't like a light switch, even when you had that moment of recognition, when you remembered your that childhood memory, it still, I would imagine, was a process of integrating that, and I mean, to get to this operating system that's working, you know, subliminally within us is, this is serious work. You know, rarely do we dig the surface. So I'm just in great admiration of you and all the tools that you've used, psychological tools and spiritual tools and interpersonal tools, all of them that you lay out in the book. It's very powerful. And I think, in a way, that's what we're here for, right? Is to not live on the autopilot. Yeah,

Dr. Samra Zafar: 26:00

yeah. And it's, it is hard work. It is very painful work, too. I remember when I first started embarking on this journey number of years ago. Actually, it was that moment when I was standing at that door and begging this man to love me, and I had this vision of me at the age of four or five, standing at my mother's bedside, and I was like, I want to change my relationship with love. I want to change my relationship with who I am and who I'm supposed to be and like. I want to like. I want to unlearn this. I want to, I want to first access this blueprint, and then I want to change it, you know. And so that was like in, you know, maybe eight years ago or so. And since then, there were moments when I was like, Oh, my God. What have I got myself into? Because I started working with a trauma psychologist, and over the next four or five years, as I was working with him, there were times when I would remember things and people saying things to me, and messages from my parents from others that would send intense emotions through me, everything from deep senses, deep sense of loss to anger to rage and fury to sadness, gratitude, everything like the moments when I would just have this day of like, intense anger, like, How dare my ex husband do this to me? How dare my parents force me into a marriage when I was a child? What right did they have? But then also compassion and empathy for someone like my mother, who also was married to an abuser, What power did she have? So all these emotions are difficult to reckon with, and I think that's what holds many of us back from embarking on this journey of healing, because we don't want to face the pain that pain can be a lot, and something that I often say to my patients and readers and audiences is that it's really important to have a good support system around you when you embark on this journey. I wasn't ready to do that until I was in a place in my life where I was stable financially and academically and from a career standpoint. In fact, once I asked my therapist, why? Why now? Like all this happened to me when I was like a child. Now I'm in my 30s, why am I? Why is all this coming back now? And he said to me, so when were you supposed to deal with it? Sarah, when you were in an abusive marriage or trying to get out of it, or battling legal challenges, or living in poverty and working five jobs to put food on the table for your children going through school? When were you supposed to do it. So it isn't until you're stable in life that your brain is not in survival mode, where it's going through all these different gymnastics that you have to do just to be able to get through a day, right? It's not until your brain actually has capacity to process these things. Your body has the capacity to process these things. It's only then that you can embark on this journey, or you should embark on this journey. So it's really important to understand when to address these bits of ourselves. Yeah, because it can be it can be difficult and it can be painful.

Tess Callahan: 30:06

There's so much self compassion in what you're saying. It's really beautiful. And it sounds like what you're saying is yes to when, when you're safe, when you know, like you're saying when, when the circumstances is right and you have the stability and the safety to and the community and the means, the mentorship to allow this to surface and be experienced and released. It's hard, but it's also sounds like it's extremely freeing, because the pain was there. It was just buried. Yes, absolutely, and now you're lighter. It's like those cords that you were talking about in the beginning of our conversations. This sounds like the process of of snipping the cords, would you say? So

Dr. Samra Zafar: 30:57

absolutely and but when you snip the cords because they're attached to you, it's going to hurt too, and that is something that we're not prepared for. Oftentimes, no one tells us that until you go through it. So going through this tunnel where there's all kinds of dragons and things that will come out at you, which have been buried memories that will unlock themselves at the worst possible time, like there were times when I remember when I was going through all that trauma work, I I would have to go into the bathroom at work and cry because I would remember something. It's kind of like opening up a Pandora's box and not and then not knowing how to close it then shut it again. So you know it, it's important work, because you're healing a wound, and when you heal a deep wound or a multiple wounds, yes, you want to get all the accumulated, you know, sorry to be gross, but the pus, or every all that stuff out of it. Yeah, right. It's necessary. You know that that's good for you. You don't want that stuff lit in you. But that doesn't mean it's going to be clean and pristine, and yes, there's going to be mess, there's going to be pain, there's going to be all kinds of things that will that it will go wrong. And that is not that is something that people don't talk about. So what I try to do in my talks, and I've tried to do through unconditional is is to really encourage people to be very compassionate towards themselves and having this attitude of compassion and curiosity. So when I am experiencing a memory, or I am feeling some pain because I'm drawing a boundary with somebody, where is that emotion coming from? What is it trying to tell me? What is the birthplace of this fear? What is the birthplace of this imposter syndrome? What is the birthplace of of this this feeling that's holding me back, Whose voice is that? What part is it that is trying to protect me? What does it mean from me? What is it trying to tell me?

Tess Callahan: 33:14

And is this something that you work through meditatively, or through journaling or taking walks, or for me,

Dr. Samra Zafar: 33:21

it's a lot about solitude and meditation. And by meditation, I you know, it's not necessarily going through a formal meditative practice, even sometimes I don't have the time to do that, although I do try to do that as much as possible. But sometimes it's simply about sitting in nature, in solitude, closing my eyes and letting the voices inside of me, letting those messages come through. So we think that we need to work to access that voice or to listen to that voice, but instead, our job is to remove all the noise so that voice can become louder. And I think that is my practice, is to is to be away from everything. And I was a few years ago, at this juncture in my life where I was really trying to think about what is next for me in terms of my career. And I used I was working in banking. The reason I went into banking was I was in survival mode when I left my marriage and I wanted a degree that would get me a job, and I didn't care what it was I needed to live in a way that was financially self sufficient. I was trying to stabilize myself after leaving an abusive marriage and living in poverty. So I was offered a job by a bank, and I took it, and hence became a banker. If it was a manufacturing company that offered me that first job, I may have been something else I wasn't really choosing at that point. Let's just say that I wasn't intentional. So I. But now, you know, fast forward five years from then, as I had worked and stabilized myself and and become more financially self sufficient, I wanted to now be more intentional about what I wanted to do in my life, and I knew that I wanted to, I've always, I had always wanted to become a doctor. When I was little, I used to buy those toy Doctor sets and wear a stethoscope around my neck and make my sisters the patients and, you know, and yeah, so I knew that I had always wanted to do that, and there was, there were times in my life when that self voice inside of me would pipe up and say, Maybe I should look at medical school. But then all the other parts of me that were told, No, that's not possible, or I'm a mother, I should be focused on my children instead of my own ambitions. And you know, all these messages that are that you're surrounded by, those voices would become really loud and tell me, what am I thinking? Why am I being so selfish? I can't do something. I can't leave a perfectly stable career and go back to school for eight more years, and there's no guarantee I'll succeed, and that's very irresponsible, and I am in my 30s, and everybody else who is going into medical school is in their early 20s, and I'll be an anomaly and a misfit and all these things, right? So I would be held back. So when I was in that at that juncture where I was thinking about what next in my career, I want a career that's more aligned to who I am, and I want something that's more meaningful. I decided to give myself that solitude. I was like, Okay, I need to get myself away from all the noise and really give space to my inner voice to shine through and to become louder. So I I rented a car, I put two pillows and a blanket and a bunch of clothes in it, and I told my daughters, do not call me unless it's an emergency. And an emergency does not mean, what do we eat for dinner? You can figure that out. You can figure that out. It has to be a true emergency. So and I just took off, and I did not have any itinerary, any hotel bookings, because that would defeat the purpose. My purpose was I will go wherever my intuition takes me. So if I'm driving on the highway and I see a sign that says detour to a scenic route or beach or whatever, and my inner voice tells me go there. You know, it speaks from a place of curiosity. I'm going to go there without thinking, Oh, that's going to make me late for my destination. I have to get to my hotel before this time, or they'll give my room away because there was no booking. There was nothing. It was complete freedom, complete abandon. So those few weeks I was on the road for about three to four weeks, I went to places and beaches and met people that I would never have on a planned trip. It was as if, like, I'm just, I'm just a leaf being carried by the wind, you know, I would there was one one day I can never forget, I took one of these detours that I felt like taking, and I came to a beach that was completely secluded. There was nobody except one woman reading a book. There was no one around except this one woman sitting on a rock by the shore, reading a book, and she did not speak English. So I was in the French province of Quebec in Canada, and I don't speak French, right? So we had this beautiful conversation through Google Translate, and she told me about this middle of nowhere group of islands that she's like, You should go there you will, you will love it there. So this, this group of islands, was a ferry and a 12 hour drive away the next day. I'm on that ferry, I'm driving there, wow. And it was the most, one of the most incredible places I've been to. You know, you can only get there by boat, and the rule is, do not leave anything but footprints, and do not take anything but memories. And it was just such a pure magical place, untouched, just like that feeling of being in awe of nature, of life, it was just, it was some. A sense of purity there, like you just feel so connected to your spiritual self, it was almost like a form of prayer for me to be in that space. And there were experiences like that that I had throughout this time and toward the end of these three or four weeks my relationship with my inner voice and my intuition had strengthened so much that I made the decision that I'm not going to listen to all these other noises around me, and I'm going to listen to my inner voice that is telling me to follow my dream. And the last day of that trip, I applied to medical school, having no idea if I would get in or not, you know, just kind of went through the process, put in my application. In fact, I was thinking, it's my first kick at the can. There's no way I'd get in, but it gives me practice for next year. And actually got in, I got into the most competitive medical school in Canada, maybe even the world, and out of 6000 applicants, they take like 200 or so people. And three years later, became a physician, and now I'm training as a psychiatrist, and I would not have taken that step if I hadn't given myself the space and the solitude for my inner voice to become the loudest voice, instead of being drowned out by all those other voices and The noise around me. So my practice is, is solitude and creating that space and just listening,

Tess Callahan: 41:49

wow, what a bold move summer, to take that time for yourself. It it's just counter to everything that you were indoctrinated to do, right and and so much self trust in unknown. I'm really moved by that story, not knowing where it would land you just following day to day your encounters with strangers and going to places where you felt led in the moment and then it landing you back, you know, in touch with your own deepest inner voice. It's, it's like a self made retreat in a way, yeah, you know, perfectly designed to you would

Dr. Samra Zafar: 42:31

retreat within, I would say, you know, not somewhere outside, but a journey inside. And I have learned that that authentic inner voice of yours is the only voice that is your true compass, that is your true guide, because that voice is connected to your, to your, to the higher voice that we we all are a part of. You know, we're all connected by that love, right? That is the voice of love. Yes, that is the voice of love. All the other voices are coming from voice places of fear, fear, but your inner voice is the voice of love, and it will never, ever lead you astray. You may have setbacks, you may have failures along the way, but in that moment, accessing that inner voice of love and knowing and connecting with why you're doing something will help you get through those failures and setbacks. And I say that because, you know, just Yes, I got into medical school, that doesn't mean going through it was easy. There were so many moments where I second guessed myself and had self doubt and felt like, what am I doing and regretted and all that. But then again, in those moments, taking that time to be with myself, to listen to my inner authentic voice, to that voice of love helped me get through those times. So that voice is never, ever going to the industry, and that's on awesome. Honestly, that's the only person you need permission from. Is you

Tess Callahan: 44:08

beautiful. It's really powerful. And I think it's, I hope it's deeply encouraging, you know, to anyone listening who has had a long held dream, like going to medical school, you know, or anything you could be visiting a place, or whatever that dream is, large or small, that we often tend to give up on too easily. I think so. I hope people find encouragement in that, and also just your journey of trust with yourself,

Dr. Samra Zafar: 44:41

and that trust is a skill that trust takes time to build. And something I'll say about dreams is that your dreams are untethered by the restrictions of society and culture. We live in your dreams are yours. Our dreams is the only true thing that is ours, and if we don't respect our dreams, then no one else will. When I was forced into marriage as a child, and then I was told for many years that I will never be able to get an education. I will never be able to make anything of myself I would like I said in the beginning, still stand in front of a mirror and practice my graduation speech, because even though I was surrounded by all those voices and messages, and I was trying so hard to be that perfect wife, that perfect mother, and falling short of those expectations and suffering the consequences of it, and having many days where I just wish that I wouldn't go on anymore. But even then, that little kernel of hope, that voice of love, was always there. It got drowned, but it never got silenced. And I truly believe we all have that in us, you know, in those and it comes to us in whispers and nudges. So if you're sitting with yourself, you know, and you're going through the motions of life, living life by other people's expectations and the confinements that other people put on you, society, culture, religion puts on you. But there's something inside of you that pipes up once in a while and says, hey, it's not supposed to be this way. This doesn't feel normal to me. There's got to be another path. This is what I truly wanted to do. I really wanted to write a book, I really wanted to start my own company. I really wanted to become a doctor, I really wanted to go to space, I really wanted to be an artist, but I was told being an being an accountant, is the best thing or or anything else right, whether it's career, whether it's relationship, you know, I'm in a I'm in a relationship where I do not feel loved. I don't think it's supposed to be like this. I really want to be in a relationship where there's love and happiness and joy, but I don't think I can leave because I've got responsibilities and you know, it's going to be difficult, like there's always that voice inside of you, the voice of true love for yourself. So if you're sitting with that and you feel that we all have that so it will never, ever get silenced. I would invite people, whoever is listening to this today, I would invite you to make space for that voice to make to Believe in your dream, and when you believe it enough that you see it as a reality, I promise you, it will become a reality because your subconscious mind will start to work towards it. It will you will start to make decisions from that place. So you know, a dream becomes a vision when you when you believe in it, before you even see it come true. And and that vision and that guiding light can be is the best, best way to move forward so, and I think that's something we can all all learn to develop that self trust,

Tess Callahan: 48:18

yeah, near the end of unconditional, which it, by the way, writer to writer. It's beautifully written, and it follows this ARC of this amazing road trip that you did, which I love being part of, being in the back seat, incredible road trip. But in one of the closing chapters, you talk about having a bento box of self care, which seems to me connected to this idea of also attuning to yourself. So I was wondering if you wanted to say anything more about the bento box, or what's in your bento box these days of self care and attunement,

Dr. Samra Zafar: 49:00

you know, something we messages we grew up with, especially as women, is that self care is selfish, and it's absolutely not. I think it's the biggest form of love you can give to the world is by practicing Love towards yourself and drawing boundaries and being intentional and being accepting of all the different parts of yourself, even the ones that you know are no longer serving you in the best way, but they did once they protected you so being compassionate and loving towards all of ourselves, embracing those imperfections, it allows us to be more loving and kind towards others as well. When we stop seeing ourselves as a single story, we stop seeing others as a single story, when we embrace all the different parts of ourselves and become compassionate to ourselves, we. Do the same for others as well. It makes us a more compassionate, loving person. And I have become a better mother because I am better to myself. I've become a better friend because I'm better to myself. So I think, you know, my bento box is a lot of solitude, which I've already talked about, a lot of self compassion, a lot of hugs, a lot of pep talks in the mirror, a lot of learning. I'm, you know, highly, I find a lot of peace and knowledge. So I am a Constant Learner, and I'm constantly absorbing and listening to audiobooks and whatnot. And I think a big thing that I haven't touched upon yet is the power of community and power of being intentional about who you surround yourself with. And that can be difficult, especially when you have to draw boundaries with people who are family. And, you know, we are surrounded by all these messages about family. They call family is family. Blood is thicker than water. You can't, you know, let go of people who you're related to. Come on, just forgive them. We feel like we have an obligation to forgive the people who did us wrong just because they're related to us by DNA. And I think that's just so faulty, and it does, it's so harmful, and I have had to, you know, draw a very firm boundary with my mother, for instance, and that's been hard for me. But watching my daughters grow up, and my younger daughter is currently 18, and I was just thinking about it yesterday. I was talking my boyfriend about it last night, that can you imagine Sara? Sara is my younger daughter. Can you imagine her right now, being married to a 30 year old and being pregnant or raising a baby, just that, that thought makes me filled with rage and disgust, and that's what happened to me, right? So building boundaries with the people who did that to me, including my own mother, has been difficult. Yeah, has been very challenging, and I do not have an obligation to forgive if I want to, and I choose to which I do. And forgiveness is fluid. Some days you forgive, some days you don't, and that's totally okay. You're allowed to feel anger towards people who did you wrong. But again, we grow up in a world where, oh, learn to forgive and forget. You know, there's no point in being angry. Well, anger is one of the anger can be a very healthy emotion. That doesn't mean you go up, go up to people and start to, like, Curse of them and whatnot, but you can, you know, a feeling of anger doesn't have to lead to a display of anger or an action of anger. The feeling is valid, yes, and validating ourselves is the most important thing we can do, because then we learn to be validating of others as well, right? So that self compassion, that boundary system, like today, I'm surrounded by people who are my chosen family, and I have so many incredible people in my life who I absolutely love and respect and who love and respect me for, who I am not who I'm supposed to be, and that's a huge part of my bento box. So you know that relationship with our in ourselves is really important, but also surrounding ourselves with the people who support that self is equally as important.

Tess Callahan: 53:44

Yes, I'm really glad you brought that up. It's it also seems like in reading both of your books, like finding community when it's hard to find community and and seeking out mentorship has been something you've learned to be really good at Yes, and that's it's really served you, and we all need it, and, you know, to have our chosen family, as opposed to, you know, the dictated family. It's very powerful. I think I would imagine that many listeners, you know, will find this conversation freeing and hopeful. I hope

Dr. Samra Zafar: 54:21

so. I hope so, and that you get, you can choose that's the definition of your chosen family. You get to choose it. You know, you get to create that community around you. And I'm a firm believer in asking for that help, asking for that mentorship. I had my graduation party last year when I graduated from medical school and people were sharing stories about how I met them and most of the people in the room, the story was and Samra asked me to be her mentor. That's great pro at that, and I. I so and I also, you know, paid forward. I'm a mentor, and I have been a mentor to many people. In fact, I have a charity that is all about mentoring survivors to help them build better lives. And so it is. It is a huge theme, because we, all of us, are interconnected. None of us are meant to do it alone, right? We're not supposed to do it alone. We're we're highly interconnected as a species. We depend on each other, and it's okay. It doesn't make you weak, it makes you human. So, yeah, you know, be deliberate about who you surround yourself with that's the that's the main message I've learned, and I try to pass that on to my daughters as well. Like, if somebody is not serving your highest purpose and your highest form of love, then they don't belong in your life. And if somebody walks away, let them, let them, you know, others will come in to fill that space. Yeah,

Tess Callahan: 56:06

I love the apparent paradox, but the you know, perfect logic of what you're saying with the solitude that you seek out and the alone time and surrounding yourself with this fabric of love and support from trusted people that how both are just so necessary to the kind of amazing evolution that's happened in your own life.

Dr. Samra Zafar: 56:28

Yes, absolutely. I think, I think when you are your biggest ally, you find allies around you too, and those are the people who actually will authentically support you because you're being authentic to yourself. And, you know, one of my main mentors is a man by the name of John, and he's the closest thing I've ever had to a father. And I remember when I spoke with him about going to medical school, you know, in my mid 30s, and I'm having this conversation with him, and I was very nervous, because, you know, he's been my guide through so many decisions in life. And I was like, I don't know what he'll say. Well, is he gonna say that, you know, you're being dumb and, you know, it's a stupid decision or whatever. So I was quite nervous. But I like John, I think I'm gonna think I'm gonna apply to medical school, kind of, you know, with that self doubt in my voice, and then he and as I explained to him why he had tears in his eyes, and he looked at me and he said, Go for it. I've never seen this kind of passion and conviction in your eyes as I see today. Oh, he's like, No. He was like, You're you're meant to do this. And he gave me his blessing, and he's like, this is it, and and, you know, it's funny, because in the preceding years, before that conversation, you know, I've known him for 12 years now, and I had come to him with so many ideas, maybe I should become a lawyer, maybe I should become a politician, maybe I should do this, maybe I should do that. And every time he would ask me to convince him, Okay, tell me why. And as I would talk through my why and through my points, I myself would come to the conclusion, maybe not, you know, yeah, but this time, he didn't even ask me that. He just saw it in my eyes, and he said, This is it. And you, I had prepared all these points in my head.

Tess Callahan: 58:33

Yeah, because you were seen, he saw you absolutely it's just what a beautiful thing that is to be seen and to see you light up to see you convince yourself, yeah, well, that encourages me. I feel encouraged. I mean, in so many ways, I feel encouraged by you, by both of your books in many ways, including this way of not being afraid to ask for mentorship. You know, what a powerful thing.

Dr. Samra Zafar: 59:10

And if you are afraid, that's okay. You know, courage is not the absence of fear, right? So you know when you go into wellness stores and libraries and whatnot. And you see all these journals with the word fearless written across it, I just feel, I just cringe when I see that, because there is no such thing as fearless, anything that you're going to do, especially when you're going against the grain, against what society has taught you, you will be terrified. I can promise you that when I left my marriage, I was terrified when I went to university, I was terrified when I started a job, I was terrified when I went to medical school, like I have been terrified pretty much all my life, and I have still continued to go forward. I. So courage is taking fear with you. Courage is about embracing fear without letting it hold you back.

Tess Callahan: 1:00:09

Courage is in the back seat. Yes, courage is

Dr. Samra Zafar: 1:00:11

holding fear by the hand and saying, It's all right, I know you're here. You're welcome to come along for the ride, but I am in the driver's seat. So courage is working with fear, not against it. And if you're afraid of reaching out to somebody, that's okay, do it anyway. They might not respond. They might say, no, like, you know, yeah, and yeah, your ego will get bruised for a bit. You might sulk for a day, and that's okay. You move on. You know that person is not meant to meant for you. And I promise you, when you do that, you will find people more often than not. In fact, sometimes you find friendship and support in the places you least expect it from and be intentional. And what I mean about that is pay attention to your body. You know, sometimes we we think this is a person who's doing exactly what we want to do. Their profile on LinkedIn looks amazing. This is someone I really want to talk to. But then you meet with them, and you don't feel that great, right? And a few months later, you're going to be like, I should have listened to my gut feeling. But then sometimes you meet somebody who has nothing in common with you. They can't give you a job. They can't do anything tangible for you, but you feel incredible in their presence. And that's how I feel with John. That's how it started. I had won an award at the University of Toronto when I graduated back in 2013 and and he was the chair of that awards committee, and I asked him if he would be willing to have a coffee conversation with me so I could thank him in person. That turned into a breakfast conversation, and I just blurted it out, will you be my mentor? Because I just felt so comfortable and so seen, as you put it, you're so seen in his presence. I just knew that it can't just end with one conversation. Yeah, I want to, I want to stay in touch with this person. And he said yes. And over the last 12 years, he has been the most incredible and the closest relationship I've had with anyone outside of my daughters. He's the closest thing I've ever had to a real parent, and I am so grateful he's been instrumental in my growth. And, you know, he's not my boss, he's not my supervisor, he's not, you know, someone who's given me any big opportunities, but he has taught me how to go after opportunities. He has empowered me to believe in myself, because he believes in me so much, and that's the best gift anyone can give you, and it may come from the least expected of places, but pay attention to how someone's presence makes you feel. That is your biggest compass. It's not about what they can do for you, it's about how they make you feel

Tess Callahan: 1:03:21

and pursue that feeling. That's great advice. Yeah, be in the body that's very powerful. Well, Samar, is there anything we did not talk about that you'd like to add in before we wrap up? I

Dr. Samra Zafar: 1:03:35

think we have so much that we've already talked about. I would wrap up by saying that that courage that we need to heal and transform our lives, it's already within us. It's, it's, it's a very learnable skill to access that courage. You know, it's not something that's elusive that only some people have and some don't. And oftentimes, I get asked by readers or audiences like, what do you think it's in you that you were able to do all these things? And I don't think it's an elusive trait or a secret ingredient, you know. So it's simply about learning to work with your fear, learning to accept fear, and choosing to take a tiny, tiny, tiny step forward, even if it is the most you know it is the most basic thing you can do. It's even if it's simply just getting out of bed in the morning when you're struggling, even if it is simply, you know, just drinking a glass of water to calm yourself down, whatever it is in that moment when everything seems dark or. Or you feel absolutely hopeless, or you feel that sense of, I don't know if I can go on, or I don't know if this is going to work. What was I thinking? Choose to do something to counter that limiting belief, whether that's picking up a friend and calling them, whether it's standing in front of a mirror and giving yourself a pep talk, whether it's making a drawing of you achieving that dream, whatever it is, it that tiny step one day, if you take, keep taking those tiny steps, you will look back and you will be like, Oh my goodness. How did I get so far? How did I make so much progress? You know that power? I truly believe it. So I think my deepest belief in life is that that power lies in all of us, all of us. We all have it within us. We just need to learn how to access it and unleash it and let it free.

Tess Callahan: 1:06:04

Well, that is some profound encouragement right there. Summer, I'm so grateful. And if anyone listening would like to get in touch with you for a speaking arrangement, or just find out more about your work. Is your website the best place? Or

Dr. Samra Zafar: 1:06:18

my website, and I just launched a new website, which I'm very excited about. So it has, it's beautiful. Yes, it has everything on there. If you go to the contact page and you fill out the form, it actually comes to my own personal inbox, so that's the best way to get in touch with me and to email me. I'm also on pretty much all social media. I'm on Instagram and LinkedIn, those are two best platforms. I constantly post videos and content on YouTube as well. So there's lots and lots of ways I love hearing from people. And I know, you know, sometimes you listen to a podcast or you read a book and you're like, Oh, I'm what's the point of sending that email to the author, she's never going to read it, or she's never going to respond. I promise you, I read and respond to every single message that I get. I consider it an honor that you are choosing to listen to me or read something I've written or have a conversation. It's a privilege for me to be a small part of your life, so please do not hesitate to reach out. It may take me a little while to respond, but I promise you that I will, and I read every single message that comes through, somehow

Tess Callahan: 1:07:33

that does not surprise me. Thank you for that, and I will put your website in the show notes and listeners run out and buy pre order unconditional, if this is before the publishing date, which is February? Is it February 8? 18th? February 18? Yes, you will not be disappointed. Thank you. Thank you so much. Dr summers offer. What a pleasure to have you with us. Thank

Dr. Samra Zafar: 1:08:02

you so much, Tess, this has been, honestly, like one of the most beautiful conversations I've ever had. And thank you for inviting me in this space, and thank you for just being with me here with such an open heart and an open mind, I feel like I feel a sense of kindredness with you already. I

Tess Callahan: 1:08:24

feel that as well, so it's a real gift. Yes, thank you so much summer. Thank you. Applause.